- Dogear group reads http://www.dregston.com/boards/list.php?23 Wed, 08 Sep 2010 04:50:22 -0600 Phorum 5.2.7 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,28720,28720#msg-28720 Banks New (4 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,28720,28720#msg-28720
kk]]> Snarkhunter Dogear Thu, 01 Oct 2009 12:58:49 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,28484,28484#msg-28484 I give up (17 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,28484,28484#msg-28484 Margaret S Dogear Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:33:02 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,27334,27334#msg-27334 Bloomsday (1 reply) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,27334,27334#msg-27334
kk]]> Snarkhunter Dogear Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:00:44 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26887,26887#msg-26887 Back in the saddle. (no replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26887,26887#msg-26887
Anyway, I have finally got a second hand copy of Ulysses and started reading again. I am in the pub with Bloom and "The Citizen" et al.]]> Spencer Dogear Fri, 15 May 2009 10:21:41 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26767,26767#msg-26767 The Funeral (10 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26767,26767#msg-26767
His relationship with his wife is still a bit of a mystery. It does not seem to be in a very good shape since they are cheating on each other, but he still seems to love her.

I must admit that I find the bit with Bloom easy to read. Sure, I don't get all of the references, but I don't feel like I am missing out on too much, as was the case with Dedalus.]]> Margaret S Dogear Wed, 13 May 2009 10:13:57 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26458,26458#msg-26458 Did you get to Leopold Bloom yet? (18 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26458,26458#msg-26458
Did Stephen spend some time in Paris in The Portrait. I don't remember...]]> Margaret S Dogear Sun, 10 May 2009 10:42:30 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26132,26132#msg-26132 Group write, anyone? (17 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26132,26132#msg-26132
BarbaraK suggested "A space-aliens invasion? Post-WWIII senario?"

I've long thought that "Jane Austen and dinosaurs" would be a winner (starting at Lyme and featuring Mary Anning the fossil collector, perhaps?)

Reginald Hill has done a detective story based on Sanditon.

ANy other thoughts?]]> Linden Dogear Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:55:58 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26124,26124#msg-26124 Ulysses - what would really help (2 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26124,26124#msg-26124
I just read the bit where Mulligan goes for a swim. What I can gather is that Stephen is a curmudgeon who hates everyone and still pays their rent. Haines is trying to be nice but Stephen thinks he's dirt. Why does he live with these people?]]> Margaret S Dogear Thu, 02 Apr 2009 08:27:24 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26067,26067#msg-26067 Ulysses - second part (6 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,26067,26067#msg-26067 Quote:
The ring of bay and skyline held a dull green mass of liquid. A bowl of white china had stood beside her deathbed holding the green sluggish bile which she had torn up from her rotting liver by fits of loud groaning vomiting.

It's been a long time since I read dialogue without quotation marks, so it's a bit disconcerting, but I'm used to it.

I liked this too
Quote:
...--It is a symbol of Irish art. The cracked looking-glass of a servant.

Basically, I feel as if I've parachuted into someone's life--I'm invisible and so I have to figure out who they are.]]> JaneGS Dogear Thu, 26 Mar 2009 04:14:16 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,25972,25972#msg-25972 Ulysses on DailyLit (6 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,25972,25972#msg-25972
So I signed up for DailyLit installments of Ulysses--I opted for MWF mailings. I'll only get through a fraction of the book by June, but at least I'll have gotten my feet wet.

Anyone care to join me? [www.dailylit.com]]]> JaneGS Dogear Sat, 21 Mar 2009 10:04:37 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24989,24989#msg-24989 The problem is the problem. (8 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24989,24989#msg-24989 Patti Dogear Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:56:46 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24952,24952#msg-24952 Sir Edward's poets (no replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24952,24952#msg-24952 If ever there was a man who felt, it was Burns. Montgomery has all the fire of poetry, Wordsworth has the true soul of it, Campbell in his pleasures of hope has touched the extreme of our sensations

Burns and Wordsworth need no explanation, so here are links to the lesser-known James Montgomery and Thomas Campbell:

[www.poemhunter.com]
[famouspoetsandpoems.com]]]> Linden Dogear Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:12:36 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24943,24943#msg-24943 JA's regular themes (14 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24943,24943#msg-24943
-- Money and matrimony are the usual main themes. It is wrong to marry for money, but it is silly to marry without it, as Cecil said. Charlotte is not going to be rich, but I doubt if her portion would be sufficient for her to marry a man completely without means. So somewhere along the line, this will be an issue.

-- Enthusiasm and excessive emotion are doomed to disappointment. Catherine Moreland learns that life is not like a gothic novel; Marianne admits that she should have behaved more like Elinor; even Mr Collins's adoration of Lady Catherine is dented when he has to flee her wrath about his cousin's marriage. I am afraid Mr Parker's investment stands a bad chance.

-- Major characters are capable of reformation. As Louise has pointed out in a different thread, if Austen's themes are generally about emotional development and we've a sensible heroine then it's got to be the hero. One of the men we've met is going to be reformed. I think it's Arthur, but I can see the case for Sidney -- one of 'em has to grow.

-- It's usually a mistake to interfere with other people's lives. Emma, Lady Catherine, and Lady Russell all make mistakes in trying to sort out who their friends or relations will marry. (There is only one incident, I think, where JA indicates approval of this sort of interference: where Mr Darcy obliges Wickham to marry Lydia, but the case is pretty desperate there and excusable). I think Diana Parker was being lined up for this kind of interfering role, and it would have caused major damage.

-- Folly is forgiveable, malice is not. Sir Edward is not merely downright silly: he's nasty in his plan to seduce Clara. He will come to a sticky end.

-- JA wrote comedy, not tragedy. Although guilt and misery appear in all her novels, she let other pens dwell on it. So things would end more-or-less happily in CHarlotte's marriage to a worthy man (whoever that might be, and whatever he had to go through to become worthy).]]> Linden Dogear Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:51:04 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24922,24922#msg-24922 What-iffery with the finished novels (6 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24922,24922#msg-24922 Sanditon we've been left with just the opening set-up of a novel, and we (and Another Lady and the others who've provided the rest) have speculated about what would have developed. So, as an exercise, let's engage in a different piece of what-iffery: what if we had been left with only the opening of the other novels? Would we be able, from the things already established, to work out what was going to happen?

Admittedly we don't know how long Sanditon was intended to be, so it's difficult to work out what an equivalent stage of abandonment would have been with the other novels. For the sake of the discussion, I'll assume that it would be around 20-25% of the way through.

So here goes: if the other novels had been abandoned at the following places, would we be able to work out what would happen?

Northanger Abbey: in Chapter 7 out of 31, John Thorpe and James Moreland arrive in Bath.

Sense and Sensibility: in Chapter 11 out of 50, Marianne has fallen for Willoughby and there are hints that Colonel Brandon has been disappointed in love. Edward re-appears and is a bit cold and reserved to Elinor in Chapter 16.

Pride and Prejudice: in Chapter 13 out of 61, Mr Collins arrives on the scene. Mr Wickham comes in Chapter 15 and tells his story in Chapter 16.

Mansfield Park: in Chapter 10 out of 48, the party returns from Sotherton.

Emma: in Chapter 11 out of 55, the John Knightleys arrive for Christmas, and are told more about the still-absent Frank Churchill.

Persuasion: in Chapter 5 out of 24, Anne goes to stay with Mary, and in Chapter 6 the Crofts arrive in Kellynch and Captain Wentworth is spoken of.

I have drawn some conclusions from this exercise, but I'll leave off for a bit to see what other people think.]]> Linden Dogear Mon, 19 Jan 2009 02:34:20 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24898,24898#msg-24898 Change comes to Austenland (5 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24898,24898#msg-24898
To me this is the most interesting thing about it as it does suggest that Austen was moving on to somewhat new material. Sanditon as a new development might not seem that significant but if you look at the Canon it is remarkable how "timeless" it seems. This of course is to some extent what has made it so popular, the six great books seem to describe an England preserved in aspic.

I do not believe for a moment that this was Austen's intention. It is hard to see how it could have been anything other than an accidental byproduct of her methodology. Not only did she focus on a "few families" eschew conversations she was not party too - so no or almost no conversations between servants, men, farmers, sailors etc - there are the pared down physical descriptions of people and places, the tremendous economy of the writing etc. All of these things combine to make the novels seem timeless and thus help them remain perenially popular.

Change isnt entirely absent from the finished novels. There is the militia in P&P, the opportunities for Navel advancement and fortune hunting provided by the war as seen in Persuasion, the landscape gardening in MA and Mr Knightly and Robert Martin's interest in agricultural improvement. But the militia in Meryton and Brighton and Captain Wentworth's Success are plot devices rather than subjects of interest themsleves, whilst the improvements are of minor importance.

Otherwise, the settings, country houses, villages, towns, Bath and London are either places that have existed in much the same form for centuries or in the case of Bath, were established as fashionable watering holes well before Austen's day.

In Sanditon, however, development, the coming of the new that JA must have been well aware of as it was happening around her, is central to the whole book.

That is what suggests to me that she was moving in a new and intersting direction, much more than differences in tone or plot that might have got tidied up later.]]> Spencer Dogear Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:44:46 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24867,24867#msg-24867 Anyone for what-iffery? (45 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24867,24867#msg-24867
-- All major characters have already been introduced
-- Whatever is the main force of the plot, something to do with it has already been presented.
-- While JA may well have been thinking of doing something new, there should at least be some hint of a fore-runner in her existing novels.]]> Linden Dogear Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:35:02 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24859,24859#msg-24859 Speaking of villains (sub to Looking Forwards...) (4 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24859,24859#msg-24859
I was thinking about the apparent lack of a villain in the book--I think you're right that Sir Edward is not up to the job, but there really doesn't seem to be another good candidate who can thwart the happiness of the heroine, other than speculation itself, and the risks therein, which really makes this seem like a very different sort of Austen novel.]]> JaneGS Dogear Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:49:23 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24857,24857#msg-24857 Looking Back or Forwards? (5 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24857,24857#msg-24857
OK so Sir Walter Eliot is a bit of an absurdity but Sanditon is full of absurd characters. The invalid Parkers, the deludedly enthusiastic Mr Parker, the mean and bombastic Lady Denham and most of all the ridiculous Sir Edward Denham.

I find this very odd because it seems to me that you can see a clear development though JA's work and that though she is very keen to poke fun at romantic ecstasies etc in her earlier work this becomes much more measured as time goes on and though the mature works certainly have their absurdities these have been toned and made much more subtle by the later works. Sir Edward, combining the susceptibility to overblown literature of Catherine Morland with the morals of Willoughby and common sense of John Thorpe, seems to have sprung from a much earlier novel.

Sanditon seems to have jumped back a couple of decades in this respect. Of course, it could be that she started with a broad brush and toned down the characters in subsequent re-drafts, but I am not sure about this as an explanation as I think Sir Edward would lose his appeal as a character if he lost his (borderline insane) take on contemporary literature. You can see her introducing his views more subtly with less exposition, certainly, but I can't see him being toned down that easily without losing the point of him. Similarly with the invalid Parkers.

In some ways, though all of the elements we see here are there in the canon, the effect of so many absurd characters together makes it seem like a throwback. On the other hand, it struck me when re-reading it that it (at least some of the characters) had more the flavour of Dickens than any other of JA's book, with its collection of absurd people and a rather pallid and uninteresting heroine. Mind you I think Sir Edward is way too stupid to turn into a proper Dickensian villain.]]> Spencer Dogear Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:08:50 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24852,24852#msg-24852 Sussex (1 reply) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24852,24852#msg-24852 [www.envf.port.ac.uk]

You can see: at the top Tunbridge Wells; in the middle-right, Hailsham, and right at the botttom, on the coast, East Bourne and Hastings. Just above Eastbourne is the village of Willington, or as it is spelled in modern times, Willingdon. But it’s not, of course, where JA’s Willingden was; it’s actually closer to the site of Sanditon. (Oh, and if you want to look, you’ll find a Hartfield right on the northern border, but that’s a digression!)
The toll-roads are marked with roman numerals, showing distances between stopping points.

If you’d rather look at a modern map, then Google does quite well. In this one, the old toll road is more or less the N-S orange roaad from Tunbridge to Hailsham and on to Eastbourne.
View Larger Map
[maps.google.com]]]> Caroline Dogear Sun, 11 Jan 2009 05:59:38 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24823,24823#msg-24823 Characters (6 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24823,24823#msg-24823
First, Mr Parker. He is established straight away: not only his obsession with Sanditon, but other characteristics.
"Excuse me, sir," replied the other. "I am sorry to have the appearance of contradicting you, but from the extent of the parish or some other cause you may not be aware of the fact -- stay -- can I be mistaken in the place? Am I not in Willingden? Is not this Willingden?" "Yes, sir, this is certainly Willingden." "Then, sir, I can bring proof of your having a surgeon in the parish, whether you may know it or not. Here, sir," taking out his pocket book, "if you will do me the favor of casting your eye over these advertisements which I cut out myself from the Morning Post and the Kentish Gazette only yesterday morning in London It takes some time for Mr Parker to be convinced that a long-standing resident might know more about the place than someone who has just read the newspapers.

The facts which, in more direct communication, he laid before them were that he was about five and thirty, had been married -- very happily married -- seven years, and had four sweet children at home; that he was of a respectable family and easy, though not large, fortune; no profession ... Upon the whole, Mr. Parker was evidently an amiable family man, fond of wife, children, brothers and sisters, and generally kind-hearted; liberal, gentlemanlike, easy to please; of a sanguine turn of mind, with more imagination than judgement. All the background information conveyed easily and smoothly.

But I'd have liked a bit more "showing" rather than "telling" about Mrs Parker: And Mrs. Parker was as evidently a gentle, amiable, sweet-tempered woman, the properest wife in the world for a man of strong understanding but not of a capacity to supply the cooler reflection which her own husband sometimes needed; and so entirely waiting to be guided on every occasion that whether he was risking his fortune or spraining his ankle, she remained equally useless.]]> Linden Dogear Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:25:25 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24815,24815#msg-24815 Somebody's got to start... (15 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24815,24815#msg-24815
More than any of the other works, this seems to be focused on place. The opening lines, in fact, are all about place--where Mr. and Mrs. Parker have been, where they're going, why they're going there.

Even MP and NA, which are both place name novels (as opposed to people or attributes or characteristics) are not so focused on place over people.

I had to consult a map: [www.solarnavigator.net]
to get a sense of where we were talking about.

I think my favorite character, apart from Mr. Parker, of course, and Charlotte, whom I rather identify with (which makes me dull, I suppose, as it seems most readers find her dull), is Lady Denham.

I enjoyed this description of her: "She has a fine active mind as well as a fine healthy frame for a woman of seventy, and enters into the improvement of Sanditon with a spirit truly admirable. Though now and then, a littleness will appear. She cannot look forward quite as I would have her and takes alarm at a trifling present expense without considering what returns it will make her in a year or two."

The interesting thing is the "littleness" of her character. I think all the other great ladies in Austen are far too proud to ever be considered mean (i.e., stingy or grasping or thinking of money). Mrs. Ferrars uses her money as a weapon but she doesn't seem cheap about it. Lady D. would love Wal-Mart.

I really enjoy Mr. Parker's blind headlong enthusiasm for his project, and his wife's gently subdued reservations about the whole thing. Diana Parker is also a gem--I know people just like her, a lot, in fact. And Arthur as well!

I'm curious--did others like the story, see promise in it, enjoy the characters?]]> JaneGS Dogear Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:45:08 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24696,24696#msg-24696 Sanditon-are we all ready? (13 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24696,24696#msg-24696
Michelle 's neck of the woods has been hit by power outages due to storms. I don't want to start without her.]]> Caroline Dogear Thu, 08 Jan 2009 07:52:58 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24670,24670#msg-24670 Sanditon question (6 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24670,24670#msg-24670
Thanks:)]]> Patti Dogear Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:44:18 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24649,24649#msg-24649 The Price of Butcher's Meat (12 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24649,24649#msg-24649 www.amazon.com]

I learned about this on the Austenblog, and will try to read it after Sanditon, which I start today, having just finished Voyager, the third in the Gabaldon series.

I've never read Reginald Hill, but this looks like a fun take on the latent promise of Sanditon.]]> JaneGS Dogear Sat, 28 Mar 2009 14:59:13 -0600 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24324,24324#msg-24324 Fought over any good books lately? (14 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24324,24324#msg-24324
[www.nytimes.com]

I vote for getting drunk and talking about spouses.]]> Warren Dogear Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:14:58 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24078,24078#msg-24078 Ulysses Anyone? (14 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24078,24078#msg-24078
My embargo on big new projects unrelated to the course is still there but it is relevent to my Essay (Elizabeth Costello's most famous book is called The House on Eccles Street and it is a retelling of some of the story of Ulysses from Molly Bloom's point of view).

But it is a bit daunting and I may need a push to get through it. Anyway, if anyone is up for it, let me know!]]> Spencer Dogear Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:10:33 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24034,24034#msg-24034 Why the title? What is a cotillion? (1 reply) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24034,24034#msg-24034 en.wikipedia.org]

I'm guessing that it's the idea of several couples exchanging partners that inspired the title, but it doesn't quite fit:

Women: Kitty, Olivia and Miss Plymstock are three, but who's the fourth? Miss Fishguard? Meg?

Men: Freddy, Jack, Dolph and Camille are four. Do we count Uncle Matthew? And Jack ends up without a partner.

There isn't a complete change of partners -- for example, Dolph never meets Olivia, does he? And I don't think Camille meets Miss Plymstock.]]> Linden Dogear Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:48:35 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24028,24028#msg-24028 Cotillion - finis (11 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,24028,24028#msg-24028 Gazette, and get married.") my stomach did it's little flip that is my absolute sure-fire physiological way of gauging whether something is romantic or not.

I really ended up liking Kitty and Freddy a great deal, liked the twists and turns of the plot, and the various elopements, schemes, and couples. Jack got his comeuppance and Dolph got his Hannah. Glad to see the last of Olivia and Camille, and hope that Kitty can talk Meg out of that lilac dress. Still though, I think Lord Ledgerton was my favorite...not a Mr. Bennet at all, imo.

Fun read, glad you suggested it, Linden.]]> JaneGS Dogear Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:46:44 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,23979,23979#msg-23979 Jack (1 reply) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,23979,23979#msg-23979
We are in even more anticipation for Kitty's first meeting with him, and again it follows standard expectations: Kitty comes over all Elizabeth Bennet, and is filled "with a strong desire to slap him."

Ah, we think, we know where this is going. The plot is going to be about how Kitty gets untangled from her fake engagement to Freddy, and how Jack realises Kitty's true worth and becomes a reformed rake.]]> Linden Dogear Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:31:59 -0700 http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,23959,23959#msg-23959 Shakespeare's Grave - ch 9 (3 replies) http://www.dregston.com/boards/read.php?23,23959,23959#msg-23959 Stratford. Is there a memorial in London, or what's going on here?

I thought the squiring around London to see the sights was very funny, and the dependence on the guidebook was wonderful. I trust The Picture of London was really a guidebook at the time.]]> JaneGS Dogear Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:04:00 -0700